For the curious among you...


#41

Prydoanian…that’s not an unreasonable position, and pretty much describes where I was some time ago. But I’m not sure you can paint the devs as that passive during the process (meaning creative decisions, not just constraints). But even if you can, there are still question marks.

But take that curve further, and a few of us are already there. The problem is…memory. We know from experience that what is perhaps being outlined is defined by what we already have, and the scaffolding there. Plus, much like Chris’s tone, the tone and scope of the game is already set. That world is made. It can be expanded and refined a bit, but it’s the same world, same basic story.

I see several old hands with experience similar to mine already looking forward to SS3, as if the last 2 -4 years hadn’t happened. Puppy-ish optimism, and wide-eyed at the glory days of the original. A bit like where we were all at 4 years ago (me included, to some extent) Well, again, do we just forget UU-to-UA…?

I see it slightly differently. They need to go out of their way to get fans of the original System Shock onboard (and don’t pretend to listen if you’re not really), and to be seen to have learned at least some of the lessons of UA. ‘Different team’ and ‘we’re learning’ are not enough when dealing with an established property (whatever constraints you have) and lots of years inbetween does not exempt you from certain responsibilities…goodwill on both sides is not enough. But follow the spirit of the original, and people will join in.

This isn’t to say that fans hold any sort of whp hand (I’m not talkingabout KS or pledging here…different topic)… just that they can buy, or not buy the game.

UA means that plenty of people won’t be giving any benefit of the doubt whatsoever. As for more sudden amnesia…I can’t see happening. I don’t mean sour grapes or think we have any real say; it’s just ‘once bitten, twice shy’.

As for wholly new content, I’d love for that to happen (along with incremental improvements) but again, you’ll have to look to the history of the process for clues as to how wide and how likely that is.

While save-game and a grand staircase are great (they really are) they are not really in the same room as NPCs/dialog. And let’s not get carried away - the fact that save-game was not in from the get-go is still a jaw dropper.

Or…ignore that ramble…and just think: older and wiser.


#42

Holy fudgeing skittles. Listen, you may get away with that with investors who don’t really care what the end product looks like, as long as it sells enough they make a profit, that doesn’t work, when the people that are paying you to make the product, are the clients of your product.

Imagine if a business software creator had that practice. Some company goes to these people, and says, “We need software that does this, this, and this, and needs to work on these things”, the software creator accepts the commission, and then halfway they just decide to change the product (because that’s how development goes) and at the end of the line they come with a product to the company who made the commission, that doesn’t do anything that was demanded, and doesn’t run on half the machines it’s supposed to run on. And then they have the audacity after the ones who made the commission say, “WTF!?” to go, “Yeah, well, we won’t apologize, that’s just how development goes.” You know what happens to them? After the company is done with them in court, their company will be bankrupt paying off debts and fines for the rest of its very short existence, and there’s a good chance they’re going to spend time in prison.

The people who back your product are not investors who just hope for a profit, and if it doesn’t deliver one it’s a nice tax write off, they are like the company who commissioned a product with basic requirements. The only reason you’re not in court now, is because the people who backed you don’t have the millions lying around to sue you into oblivion; which makes this crap all the more disgusting.

If you can’t fulfill the most basic of requirements for a product (the ones you gave in the KS) then you’re entire development process is wrong.

And if you’re going to make a massive about face like that, you communicate that to the backers, and ask if anyone wants to have their money back now the product isn’t what they backed any more. And anyone who says, “Yes, I want my money back”, you pay their money back if you’re decent people.


#43

Yeah, but that describes most kickstarter projects. They don’t end up where they started.


#44

Dawn…that’s too glib by half (ring any bells? ;)).

Any sane adult already knows that already about KS start-and-finish…at least in developmental terms. And no-one here or in any other forum would argue with the commonsense side of that. I think you know this, too.

You also know that the end game design is not just slighty off-kilter compared to the both the original and the KS …but worlds away in every aspect bar magic and some improved combat (in theory). That has not really been accounted for, never mind the falling short. We know hands are tied, and some want to move on…fine. But others will choose to remember this fiasco. It would be slightly odd if they didn’t, wouldn’t it?

Even now, you can blink, scratch your head,and think ‘what just happened?’. It’s easy to become numb to the shock of it. Again, an entirely personal and valid choice…but with SS3 on the horizon? Ok, so I didn’t invest (if you ignore 4 years of forum participation…which I don’t regard as wasted btw,and certainly don’t feel ‘owed’ anything beyond maybe a Paracetomol for all the head-scratching.

I can certainly see why Chris’ reaction gets the reaction it does.

I’m not in the ‘sue them’ camp…but nor should any one really be in the camp that basically says ‘It’s a KS…skittles happen’ as if that just makes everything fine and dandy. And if people wish to object to the ‘apology’ that’s up to them. To be honest, there’s stuff to work with there. And the tone. Granted it’s personal, and not uniform across the board.


#45

Comparing cut content to revolutionary features left a sour taste in my mouth as well. I feel sad for them, as a team of four working on a project of this ambition, “lacking resources” doesn’t even begin to describe their position. I’m not mad at one failure, I believe in second chances, and glad that these guys are back together, even if their first try is a fumble. As for SS3, I await. Anxiously, as I have several memories of SS2 and SHODAN I don’t want misrepresented for a new generation. Don’t go down the kiddie art direction for this game. I was thinking more along the lines of TRON, if anything, for art influences.


#46

Anger isn’t really the point now, it’s more exasperation hoping that something sticks. Some posts make you think ‘yes,various people get it now’…others make you think ‘Oh god, here we go again’.

Is that patronising to everyone? Sure. But you’ hopeyouweren’t in that position in the first place. SS3 doesn’t get a completely clean sheet.

If this debate at a high level you might just about wear it. But if it’s at a basic level…ideas, story, and so on…you wonder. And again we come back to the point about either patronising the devs, to some extent, or being patronised. Ordinarily, it wouldnt even be up for discussion; but then you look at some of the choices driving UA, and you get dizzy. You just want to take some things, some levels, for granted, without having to make a case for it. And god forbid we have that ‘everything looks great, and everything’s in good hands’ ethic.It may workfor pitching, investors, and trade-shows…but the game has to be there,and in this case it has history. Lots of history.

History doomed to repeat it itself if ignored, and all that.

But yeah, it can’t all be autopsy or we’ll go mad(der). More than anything, I hope they get the story right. Or, I hope they at least get a story. After UA it would (seriously) be a mistake to take too much for granted.